Re: Phrygian
"GORDIUM" was Turkish " KÖRDÜyÜM" (Abdullah Konushevci)
--- In bcn2003-II@yahoogroups.com, Polat Kaya
<tntr@C...> wrote:
Dear friends,
Greetings to all.
Below is my response to Abdullah Konushevci's
letter.
> Dear friend,
> First of all,
you must be aware that <Gordium>, <Gordian knot> are
> derived words,
first one extended in neuter ending -um, second one
> in -an. So,
the stem or the root of the word is <gordi->, derived in
> Phrygian from
PIE root *g^herd- and *gherd- 'to encircle, to
> enclose'(very
well attested PIE root in at most all IE languages:
POLAT KAYA: First
of all you should be aware of the fact that all
words are derived
from something. What you are suggesting as a root
for GORDIUM is not
correct. You are saying that Gordium and Gordian
knot are from the
root word <gordi->, derived in Phrygian from PIE
root *g^herd- and
*gherd- 'to encircle, to enclose'. This cannot be
because of the fact
that the story talks about an untiable knot. The
story does not talk
about encircling or enclosing.
In view of this
fact, how do you propose to derive an etymology
for the concept of
a "blind knot" from the concept of "to encircle, to
enclose"? The
root word *g^herd- and *gherd- and the sample words
that you have given
meaning "hedge, and city" cannot constitute an
etymological source
for an untiable knot. The two concepts are
quite different
from one another. This kind of loose and irrelevant
etymology provided
by you and others are the root of the problem
in linguistics. Somehow
this kind of etymology has gone on far too
long without being
challenged and the dictionaries are full of it now.
Linguists need to
be much more on their toes than they have been
before. No more
snow jobs please.
Yet in my
explanation of GORDIUM, the name is made up of two
Turkish words:
"GOR" (KÖR) meaning "blind" and "DIUM" (DÜGÜM)
meaning
"knot". Thus the two together make GORDIUM (KÖRDÜGÜM)
meaning a
"blind knot" which cannot be undone unless one cuts it as
Alexander the Great
has supposedly done. Additionally, the root
word
"GORDI" that you speak of is also Turkish and means "he/she/it
is blind".
Thus, in the context of the story, your suggestion that
the root is from a
PIE root meaning "enclosing, encircling, a hedge,
city" does not
make sense and cannot constitute a correct answer -
unless you are
trying to get away with a con job. Do not try any
fast ones on me as
I am not buying it.
As for your
so-called PIE examples, not only are they bogus but they
have also been
anagrammatized from Turkish.
You say:
> Phrygian from
PIE root *g^herd- and *gherd- 'to encircle, to
> enclose'(very
well attested PIE root in at most all IE languages:
Your example of
Alb. GARDH ('hedge, fence) is an anagram of Turkish
"ORGUDU"
("ÖRGÜDÜ") meaning "it is a wall". A "hedge" is a
wall of
some kind whichever
way one looks at it.
Your example of
Sll. "GRAD/GOROD" ('city', ograda 'hedge, fence') is
also an anagram of
Turkish "ORGUDU" (ÖRGÜDÜ") meaning "it is a wall",
"it is a
hedge", "it is a woven thing". When one speaks of WIRE
FENCE, one talks
about a "TEL ÖRGÜ" in Turkish. That you should
recognize.
Additionally, the
word that you call "GRAD/GOROD" for "city" is not
only an anagram of
Turkish word "ORGUDU" (ÖRGÜDÜ"), but also
conceptually is a
network (örgü) of endless number of "walls" (örü) in
three dimensions.
The root word for all these is the Turkish "ör",
i.e., the root of
Turkish verb "örmek" meaning "to build", "to
weave",
"to
knit"; "fence, wall, artificial barrier", etc. Thus, your so-
called PIE source
words are from Turkish by way of anagrammatizing.
This is expected
because there was no previous IE languages.
Your example of Gr.
korthis, got. garda, etc. is vague and incomplete.
If you were to
speak less encryptic and more transparent, your
communication would
be more legible and less confusing - unless
of course your
intention is to confuse.
As you can see your
examples are way out of range and hence cannot
be the etymological
source for either GORDIUM or the GORDIAN KNOT.
This kind of
etymology that you propose is wrong and misleading not
only to those who
are out of linguistics but also to those who are in
it. People in this
forum and elsewhere need much more thruthful input.
Finally Abdullah
Konushevci said:
> As you see, it
has nothing to do with Turkish "KÖR" _blind-
> and
"DÜyÜM" _knot_, even if someone is KÖRKÜTÜK.
On the contrary, it
has everything to do with Turkish "KÖR"
and
"DÜyÜM". If this is the kind of linguistic explanation that
Abdullah Konushevci
does, then he has a long way to go yet. I also
note here that he
changed his tune from being friendly to being
offensive. I have
shown above that his so-called PIE examples are not
only totally wrong
and irrelevant to the story, but are also
themselves
concoctions made up from Turkish by way of
anagrammatization.
In order for Abdullah Konushevci not to see this
fact, he must have
been in a KÖRKÜTÜK state himself. Or he is trying
to cover up
misrepresentations about ancient history and languages
that have been
perpetrated for so very long, i.e., claiming that most
everything is from
PIE. Or he is simply being OBNOXIOUS by
saying "even
if someone is KÖRKÜTÜK." In this forum, he has
demonstrated this
kind of ÇIRKIN behaviour a number of times towards
me. I can only
attribute this kind of ugly behaviour to his
insecurity and
immaturity and possibly even envy.
Best wishes to all,
Polat Kaya
August 24, 2003
=============
Abdullah Konushevci
wrote:
> Dear friend,
> First of all,
you must be aware that <Gordium>, <Gordian knot> are
> derived words,
first one extended in neuter ending -um, second one
> in -an. So,
the stem or the root of the word is <gordi->, derived in
> Phrygian from
PIE root *g^herd- and *gherd- 'to encircle, to
> enclose'(very
well attested PIE root in at most all IE languages:
> Alb. gardh
'hedge, fence'; Sll. grad/gorod 'city', ograda 'hedge,
> fence'; Gr.
korthis, got. garda, etc.).
> As you see, it
has nothing to do with Turkish "KÖR" _blind-
> and
"DÜyÜM" _knot_, even if someone is KÖRKÜTÜK.
> No one is able
to make any connection between PIE and Turkish
> language, not
even through anagramatization (!), without knowing in
> some extend
the PIE roots and soundlaws attested in their daughters
> languages.
>
> Regards,
> Konushevci