Re: Phrygian "GORDIUM" was Turkish " KÖRDÜyÜM" (Abdullah Konushevci)

--- In bcn2003-II@yahoogroups.com, Polat Kaya <tntr@C...> wrote:

Dear friends,

Greetings to all. Below is my response to Abdullah Konushevci's
letter.

> Dear friend,
> First of all, you must be aware that <Gordium>, <Gordian knot> are
> derived words, first one extended in neuter ending -um, second one
> in -an. So, the stem or the root of the word is <gordi->, derived in
> Phrygian from PIE root *g^herd- and *gherd- 'to encircle, to
> enclose'(very well attested PIE root in at most all IE languages:

POLAT KAYA: First of all you should be aware of the fact that all
words are derived from something. What you are suggesting as a root
for GORDIUM is not correct. You are saying that Gordium and Gordian
knot are from the root word <gordi->, derived in Phrygian from PIE
root *g^herd- and *gherd- 'to encircle, to enclose'. This cannot be
because of the fact that the story talks about an untiable knot. The
story does not talk about encircling or enclosing.

In view of this fact, how do you propose to derive an etymology
for the concept of a "blind knot" from the concept of "to encircle, to
enclose"? The root word *g^herd- and *gherd- and the sample words
that you have given meaning "hedge, and city" cannot constitute an
etymological source for an untiable knot. The two concepts are
quite different from one another. This kind of loose and irrelevant
etymology provided by you and others are the root of the problem
in linguistics. Somehow this kind of etymology has gone on far too
long without being challenged and the dictionaries are full of it now.
Linguists need to be much more on their toes than they have been
before. No more snow jobs please.

Yet in my explanation of GORDIUM, the name is made up of two
Turkish words: "GOR" (KÖR) meaning "blind" and "DIUM" (DÜGÜM)
meaning "knot". Thus the two together make GORDIUM (KÖRDÜGÜM)
meaning a "blind knot" which cannot be undone unless one cuts it as
Alexander the Great has supposedly done. Additionally, the root
word "GORDI" that you speak of is also Turkish and means "he/she/it
is blind". Thus, in the context of the story, your suggestion that
the root is from a PIE root meaning "enclosing, encircling, a hedge,
city" does not make sense and cannot constitute a correct answer -
unless you are trying to get away with a con job. Do not try any
fast ones on me as I am not buying it.

As for your so-called PIE examples, not only are they bogus but they
have also been anagrammatized from Turkish.

You say:
> Phrygian from PIE root *g^herd- and *gherd- 'to encircle, to
> enclose'(very well attested PIE root in at most all IE languages:

Your example of Alb. GARDH ('hedge, fence) is an anagram of Turkish
"ORGUDU" ("ÖRGÜDÜ") meaning "it is a wall". A "hedge" is a wall of
some kind whichever way one looks at it.

Your example of Sll. "GRAD/GOROD" ('city', ograda 'hedge, fence') is
also an anagram of Turkish "ORGUDU" (ÖRGÜDÜ") meaning "it is a wall",
"it is a hedge", "it is a woven thing". When one speaks of WIRE
FENCE, one talks about a "TEL ÖRGÜ" in Turkish. That you should
recognize.

Additionally, the word that you call "GRAD/GOROD" for "city" is not
only an anagram of Turkish word "ORGUDU" (ÖRGÜDÜ"), but also
conceptually is a network (örgü) of endless number of "walls" (örü) in
three dimensions. The root word for all these is the Turkish "ör",
i.e., the root of Turkish verb "örmek" meaning "to build", "to weave",
"to knit"; "fence, wall, artificial barrier", etc. Thus, your so-
called PIE source words are from Turkish by way of anagrammatizing.
This is expected because there was no previous IE languages.

Your example of Gr. korthis, got. garda, etc. is vague and incomplete.
If you were to speak less encryptic and more transparent, your
communication would be more legible and less confusing - unless
of course your intention is to confuse.

As you can see your examples are way out of range and hence cannot
be the etymological source for either GORDIUM or the GORDIAN KNOT.
This kind of etymology that you propose is wrong and misleading not
only to those who are out of linguistics but also to those who are in
it. People in this forum and elsewhere need much more thruthful input.

Finally Abdullah Konushevci said:
> As you see, it has nothing to do with Turkish "KÖR" _blind-
> and "DÜyÜM" _knot_, even if someone is KÖRKÜTÜK.

On the contrary, it has everything to do with Turkish "KÖR"
and "DÜyÜM". If this is the kind of linguistic explanation that
Abdullah Konushevci does, then he has a long way to go yet. I also
note here that he changed his tune from being friendly to being
offensive. I have shown above that his so-called PIE examples are not
only totally wrong and irrelevant to the story, but are also
themselves concoctions made up from Turkish by way of
anagrammatization. In order for Abdullah Konushevci not to see this
fact, he must have been in a KÖRKÜTÜK state himself. Or he is trying
to cover up misrepresentations about ancient history and languages
that have been perpetrated for so very long, i.e., claiming that most
everything is from PIE. Or he is simply being OBNOXIOUS by
saying "even if someone is KÖRKÜTÜK." In this forum, he has
demonstrated this kind of ÇIRKIN behaviour a number of times towards
me. I can only attribute this kind of ugly behaviour to his
insecurity and immaturity and possibly even envy.

Best wishes to all,

Polat Kaya

August 24, 2003

=============

Abdullah Konushevci wrote:

> Dear friend,
> First of all, you must be aware that <Gordium>, <Gordian knot> are
> derived words, first one extended in neuter ending -um, second one
> in -an. So, the stem or the root of the word is <gordi->, derived in
> Phrygian from PIE root *g^herd- and *gherd- 'to encircle, to
> enclose'(very well attested PIE root in at most all IE languages:
> Alb. gardh 'hedge, fence'; Sll. grad/gorod 'city', ograda 'hedge,
> fence'; Gr. korthis, got. garda, etc.).
> As you see, it has nothing to do with Turkish "KÖR" _blind-
> and "DÜyÜM" _knot_, even if someone is KÖRKÜTÜK.
> No one is able to make any connection between PIE and Turkish
> language, not even through anagramatization (!), without knowing in
> some extend the PIE roots and soundlaws attested in their daughters
> languages.
>
> Regards,
> Konushevci