Re: [bcn2004] [Indo-Eurasia] More tamgas, etc.

Dear Kamil,

Your article is very interesting. Thank you for posting it. Because of the occasion, I like to note few items.

In your article reference is made to 
Khazar fortress of "Sarkel". The name "SARKEL" is an intentionally altered form of the Turkish name "SARIKALE" meaning "yellow castle" or "yellow fortress".  This alteration alienates the name from Turkish and also it alienates the "Turk Khazar (Hazar) people" from their Turkishness.  We need to be very careful in identifying correctly such names.  As I have said in many occasion alteration of Turkish names takes away Turkish civilizaation from Turks and gives it to someone else who had nothing to do with that civilization.  Another similarly altered ancient "Turkic" city name is the so-called "SARDIS" of Lydians in western Anatolia.  The correct Turkish form of the name "SARDIS" is "SARIDÜZ" (SARI DÜZ) meaning "yellow plain".  This name explaines perfectly the geography of the area where "SARIDÜZ" (SARDIS) was located.  Another ancient altered toponym is the name "HALYS" given to the present "KIZILIRMAK" in Anatolia.  The name "HALYS" is an alteration of the ancient Turkish name "AL SU" (ALSU) meaning "red water".  The letter "Y" in the name "HALYS" is the bogus letter of "U" and letter "H" is a wrapping used to disguise the name further.  The present name "KIZILIRMAK" also describes the "red" quality of this particular Anatolian river.  The name "HALYS" has nothing to do with ancient "Greeks" or "Indo-Europeans" other than that when they had the political and military opportunity over Anatolia, they altered the name of this river and also countless number of other toponyms so that they could not be known as Turkish anymore.  This ancient way of altering Turkic names is a trick designed to alienate ancient Turkic names from Tur/Turk peoples. Afterall, they used the same trick in altering Turkish words and phrases in order to manufacture languages for themselves. The ancient Lydians and Phrygians were Turkish speaking Tur/Turk peoples as were the Trojans.  The name TROJAN is an altered form of the Turkish expression "TUR-CAN" meaning "TUR MAN" (Tur people).  In this case letter "J" is the bogus one because it is both "Y" and Turkish "C" which has the sound of English "G".  Similarly, the name TROY is an alteration of Turkish "TUR ÖY" meaning "Tur house" and "Tur home". 

Best wishes to you and all,

Polat Kaya

From: Kamil Kartal <allingus2001@...>
To: BCN <>
Subject: [bcn2004] [Indo-Eurasia] More tamgas, etc.
Date: Lund 23 mai 2005  02:14



  • Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:03:25 -0700 (PDT)
    Subject: Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] More tamgas, etc. 
    To: allingus2001@...

    While we're waiting for further posts on Gandhara, here are a few more web pages on Eurasian tamgas (or Mongolian tamagas) -- complex brands or housemarks, sometimes joined in longer strings, found throughout Eurasia from early ancient to early modern times. Jacob Dahl has found interesting relationships between these and certain types of signs in proto-Elamite. The same can be said of complex Indus signs.

    Earlier review paper posted on this on Mongolian tamagas (pdf file):

    I find the examples from the Khazar fortress of Sarkel, from the 9th century CE, particularly interesting, since they contain examples of tamgas in longer strings on bricks -- not so unlike the signs found much earlier at various early sites (like Shahdad) in SE Iran. (Think also of the short strings of symbols on the Jiroft 'brick' some claim is 'writing'!)

    For some of the brick signs from Sarkel, scroll down to the bottom of the page:

    Beautiful examples of longer strings of tamgas at the bottom of this website from Changthang -- scroll down, and don't miss:

    Map of the region:

    Other recent finds from the same area :

    The latter are from John Bellezza. Is anyone on the List in contact with him? Maybe we could get him on the List to discuss these materials?

    Many tamgas are also found mixed in with other cultic materials in Gandhara, of course, along the
    Karakorum highway out of the Indus Valley. See esp. the rich materials and other resources at the Heidelberg site:

    Some additional photos at:

    Any discussion of these materials is welcome. We won't leave the Gandhara thread until we get discussion going!