Re: [bcn2004] Tantrism in Rig Veda (1:1;23) : Part 1 The Meaning of Soma

Dear Dr. K. Loganathan,

Hi.  I read your paper regarding "SOMA" in Tantrism in Rig Veda. Below I have shown your original text in "blue". In order to be able to follow your presentation clearly, I need some clarification regarding some words that I marked "RED"in your text.  Since you used them in your presentation of the subject matter, it would be beneficial if we can get exact definitions of these words by you so that we have a better understanding of what is being presented. My questions and comments are interlaced in your text below. I thank you in advance and hope that my questions will not take much of your time.  

K. Loganathan wrote:

From: "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...>
Subject: [bcn2004] Tantrism in Rig Veda (1:1;23) : Part 1 The Meaning of  Soma
Date: Merc 11 mai 2005  23:21

You wrote:


>>>> Tantrism in Rig Veda (1:1;23) : Part 1 The Meaning of  Soma

The language of Rig Veda and allied literature Rg,  is not only a variant of Archaic Tamil closely related to SumeroTamnil but also a language on the way towards becoming  C.Tamil. So the Vedas are documents in Tamil and this explains why the Vedas , theNaal Veeta NeRi, was taken at least by CaGkam Tamils as their sacred lore  and Tamil kings patronized the Yajna and so forth. Now the recovery of the Tamil nature of Vedas also helps us to recover the original meanings which have become lost by the Brahmanical interpretations of later times  and which has not been put right by the IndoAryanism of the Western scholars who seem to be more anxious to have a footing in the genisis of Indic cultures than a proper understanding of them. There is a systematic neglect of the Sumerian and Dravidian not only in linguistics but also in metaphysics and because of which most of their studies are not only shallow but also of peripheral importance.  <<<<


Polat Kaya:  In view of the understanding that words are names for one concept each or for multiple concepts combined in one word, will you please clarify the following:  

- What are the meanings of RIG, VEDA and RIG VEDA in the name "RIG VEDA"? If they have multiple meanings, I would appreciate it if you would identify them.

- What is the exact meaning of the name "Tantrism" in Rig Veda? It is said that its source is the Sanskrit word "tantra". What is meant by the term "tantra"?

- In your writing, the name "vedas" seems to mean "document" or "manuscripts" or "writings".  Additionally, they are said to be "hymns", that is, praising a "god". Is this a correct understanding of the word "vedas"?

- What is the meaning of the term
 "CaGkam"  and what qualification does it bring to the name "Tamil" when it is used as in "CaGkam Tamil"?What is the exact meaning of the name "Tamil"? I get the impression that the name "TAMIL" is also the name of a god.  If so, what does it represent?

- What does
 "Yajna" mean in exact terms? From your description they seem to be people who were patronized by Tamil kings.  If so for what services were they patronized?  

"Yajna", when rearranged as "YAJAN" sounds very much like the Turkish word "YAZAN" meaning "he who writes", that is, "scriber".

- Will you please clarify the meaning of each word in the name
 "Naal Veeta NeRi" and also the meaning of the composite title.

You wrote:

>>>> The recovery of the Tamil Base of the Hymn 1:1:23 also helps us to recover the orginal meanings of the slokas and which also shows the underlying  metahysics is the same as Tantrism, that which pervaded the NSKD cultures. We have already shown such aspects in our study of Purusha Suktam  with its linkage to Sumerian Enlil and the later day VishNu and so forth. This study also confirms that the metaphysics of this hymn is also related to Sumerian and constitutes an intermediate stage in the evolution of Tamil Tantrism such as Tirumular.  

In this study I hope to being out these elements with the hope that scholars more competent than myself will take up the study of the related hymns in the Vedas along these lines in the future. <<<<


Polat Kaya:

- What is meant by the names "Purusha" and "Suktam" individually and also when they are together as in "Purusha Suktam"? 

- How does "Purusha Suktam" link with the name Sumerian ENLIL, that is, the "wind god" ("Han Yel" in Turkish)  and later day "VishNu"? 

- What is the meaning of "Tirumular"? Is this a Tamil word corresponding to "Trimurti"?

- What do you mean by the expression "metaphysics of this hymn"? What exactly are you referring to? Does the hymn have "double" meaning?

You wrote:

>>>> What is Soma ?

Let us begin this study by addressing question : what is Soma ? where the word soma is etymologically linked to
 Su. Suen, the Moon God, the Nanna Suen perhaps Ta. Nalla Suen, the good or health providing source of light. ( su =si-u : radiance, Ta. nalam: good health etc). Being a very deep metaphysical notion,  various and wrong intepretatitons must have developed even in the ancient times. The follwing sloka implies that there were such false interpretations and goes to define the right meaning  and where it is declared  Apsu me Soma



apsu me soma abravid antar visvaani bheshaja /

agnim ca visvasambhuvam apas ca visvabheshajih//

has the Tamil Base

apsu mey sooma a-paravitu antar bi-es-vaan-i bi-si-a-ja/

agnim sam bi-es-va ambuvam apa-si  sam bi-es-va bi-si-a-ji// 

߆ - .. -/

ٳ- ɢ//

and has the meaning:

It is the Celestial Waters (apsu) that is the true Sooma( mey Sooma). It spreads deep within the world and the body (a-paravitu-antar) serving as the rejuvenator of everything in the cosmos( bi-es-vaan-i bi-si-a-ja). It also emerges as the metaphysical Fire (agnim) and cosmic waters(that cools). It also appears as the pure waters (apa-si) and the rejuvenator of the creatures in the world. <<<<

Polat Kaya: 

1. From the above definition it seems that "SOMA" means "water", particularly the "rain waters'. Is this a correct understanding? 

2. You meant "apsu" being the "Celestial Waters".  In your view, what part of "apsu" is "water" and what part is "celestial"?  

In my paper 

I clearly noted that in the Sumerian texts the word "ap-su" was the Turkish "apa-su" where 'apa" means "father' and "su" means "water". My definition of "apsu" and your definition of "Soma" has one thing in common, that is "SU" meaning "water".  

When you say "Celestial Waters" what exactly do you have in mind? Are you implying the "clouds", that is, water in "vapour" form which is a form of the earthly running "liquid" water?  If not what else do you mean?

3. In the above text, you indicated "apa-si" being "pure waters".  In your view what part of this word "apa-si" is "water" and what part is "pure"? Could it be that "apa-si" is the same as Sumerian "ap-su" where "ap" and "apa" correspond to each other, and similarly "si' and "su" are the same as the Turkish "su"?

4. You said
 "bi-es-vaan-i bi-si-a-ja" is cosmos. In this expression, is "bi-es-vaan-i" same as "biesvaani", and what does it mean?  Similarly, is "bi-si-a-ja" same as "bisiaja" and what does it mean?

5. What does "a-paravitu-antar" means in exact terms? Hence, what does "paravitu" and "antar" mean individually?

6. What does "metaphysical fire" and/or "agnim" mean and signify for you in exact terms?


7. In your paper below you are also talking about Sumerian AB-ZU and ZU-EN being "Celestial waters". In my paper on Sumerian NIN-GIR-SU, I gave a detailed account of these words. Yet somehow you do not seem to make the connection that the Sumerian "ZU" (SU) and Turkish "SU" are one and the same. This I take you did not have time to read my paper. It also seems that the Sumerian "SI-U"  meaning "radiance" is being related to "SU" meaning "water".  

8. If Sumerian "SI-U" means "radiance" then it lines up perfectly with the Turkish word "ISI-U" (ISI O) meaning "it is heat" and "IShI-U" (IShI O) meaning "It is light".  Thus even in this context, the Turkish and Sumerian are the same but somehow Sumerologists have not noted these correspondences or maybe they like to keep these Sumerian - Turkish related words suppressed.  As I have already pointed out earlier,  the name "TUR" has been intentionally suppressed in Sumerian writings by replacing it with "mar" or "amar'.  It appears that these Sumerian - Turkish correspondences (i.e., ZU versus SU, EN versus HAN, ISI and IShI versus SI-U) are also being suppressed. 

You said:

>>>> As I have already pointed out the Apsu here is Su. abzu, the celestial waters to be distinguished from Su. apa, ab-ba etc the earthly waters  and which also occurs in the hymn above as apah etc. The phrase apsu me Soma is the Tamil apsu mey sooma i.e it is the celestial waters that is the TRUE( me, mey) Soma and not anything else like metal extracts, herbal medicine alcoholic beverages and so forth. The Apsu is the Celestial Waters, the Akaaya KaGakai - the heavenly Ganges that Siva wears along with the crescent moon on His tuft. <<<<


Polat Kaya:


- Of the expression "Akaaya KaGakai", what part refers to "celestial" and what part refers to "waters"?  If this term also refers to the river GANGES, specifically which part of the expression is identified with the name "Ganges"?

In my Sumerian-Turkish kinship writings, I had indicated that there had been a switch of "meaning" between the words "AP" (AB) and "SU" (ZU).  In other words, Turkish "SU" meaning "water" had been "suppressed" while its meaning was given to "AP" ("AB") thus making its meaning "water" in Semitic. In view of this suppression and switching of meaning between words, I do not believe that Sumerian "apa" or "ab-ba" means "water". Yet "apa" (aba), "abba" (baba), abo' mean "father" both in Turkish and also in Semitic languages. Thus, it seems glaringly evident that there has been an activity of "suppressing" Turkish words from Sumerian readings.  


You wrote:

>>>> We can see that the Soma Juice, more popularly known even now among the Tanils as the Soama Paanam, the Soma piitayeis actually the celestial waters and which is noted here as that which spreads deep inside all (a-paravitu antar bi-es-vaan-i= abravid antar visvaani) serving as the energy that  rejuvenates as well as procreates. <<<< 


Polat Kaya: Here we get the impression that "SOMA" is the "juice" of something.  Ram Varma also identified "Soma" as being the juice of a particular plant.  It sounds as if it is a mind distorting "juice" from a plant.  Could it be that those who drank it "heard" voices in their mind and hence called them "divine voices"?  In modern times, it seems that many people are attuned to this kind of life style.  

From the above definition of yours, it seems that "SOMA" is the "blood" that runs deep inside all living beings (animals) and the "water" that runs through all plants.  Of course both  blood and plant waters provide all the necessary energy and rejuvenation for life. 

- What is the meanings of the words "paravitu", "antar" and "bi-es-vaani"?  

You wrote:

>>>> This we can see something metaphysical but arising through a sound naturalistic observation - without water as such there cannot be any flora and fauna surviving and multiplying.   WEhile old age results because of a drying up, youthful vitality is retained as long as the body retains the inner waters.When we seek the METAPHYSICAL sources of such earthly and observational features, then the Sumerians hit upon the idea that there must the Abzu , the Celestial Waters as the source of the earthly. Waters that rejuvenates etc.   This sloka continues the same insight adding some further details.

Soma as KuNdalini

Now what is very fascinating is that this Soma is noted not only the source of the waters, both celestial and earthly but also the Fire.  It is stated quite clearly that 
agnim sam bi-es-va ambuvam = agnim sam bi-es-va ambuvam . The Soma is the Fire as well as the earthly waters and which makes it quite clearly that
 Soma is KuNdalani Sakti for it is this that can assume both the form of Fire and Waters.  This also links up with Soma appearing both as the Inner Sun and Inner Moon that is also mentioned in this Hymn <<<<


Polat Kaya: 

- What concept does "
KuNdalani Sakti" represent that it can be both fire and waters and related to SOMA? 

- How can you connect SOMA to the "Inner Sun" and the "Inner Moon" which were not seen by these ancient peoples who wrote the "Hymn" you are referring to? 

- In an earlier part of your writing, you said "SOMA" was "water"; now you say "SOMA" is also the "source of waters".  These are two different concepts unless there are some qualifying reasons for speaking thus. Additionally, now "SOMA" is also the "fire". Will you please explain all of these conflicting ideas appearing in one word.

If SOMA is the "FIRE" as well as the "earthly waters', then SOMA must be a word that represents multiple meanings implying that it has been made from several similar sounding words probably from another source.  In Turkish we would get the following which meets this requirement:

a) ISIMA meaning "heating" and hence "fire", that is, the "sun".

b) IShIMA meaning "lighting", "shining" and hence "fire", that is, the "sun".

c) SUMA meaning "making watery" hence "water" where "su" is water and suffix "ma" implies "making" as in Turkish "sulama".  SU-MA would also mean "the magnificent water" which is "magnificent" because it is one of the essential elements required for "life" on earth. 

d) SAMA (SEMA) meaning "Sky" where sun and the so-called "celestial waters" that is the "clouds" take place and appear.  Additionally, the Sky (SAMA) would be the source of celestial waters.

You wrote:

>>>> 1:1:23-12

haskaarad  vidyutas  pary ato jaata avanta nah /

maruto marilayantu nah//

has as it Tamil Base 

kaas karaitu sid-uti-as pari atoo jiata av-anta ni-ah/

marutam mari-rayantu ni-ah //

-- ɢ - /
 -ۭ //

and has the meaning:

Indira appears among the people (ni-ah)  both as the sun(pari)  of loud words that illuminate the mind (ka-as karaitu sid-uti-as)there in the interior of the people ( ato ji-atu av-anta)  as well as cooling waters (marutam) that spreads out as rains within and in the wolrd 

Here we should note that Indra is Tamil with the root Su. itu, inda ( moon) and hence perhaps originally the Divine Power of Soma, the Moon .  Here it is stated that the Soma or Indra also emerges as Pary , the Sun in the deeper recesses of the soul (jiata av-anta ni-ah = ato jaata avanta nah) in addition to maruto i.e, Ta, marutam : waters. <<<<

Polat Kaya;  In your above expression: "Indira appears among the people (ni-ah) both as the sun (pari) of loud words that illuminate the mind", do you mean: "Indira appears among the people (ni-ah)  both as the sun (pari) AND  of loud words that illuminate the mind"? That is, is there an "AND" missing in your sentence?  If not, how then is the"sun" interpreted as "loud words that illuminate the mind?

- You also say that INDRA is the "cooling waters".  How do you explain this connection?

- Additionally, you say INDRA is also SOMA. How do you explain this?

- How do you connect the "SOMA" concept to the "moon" concept?

- What are the meanings of the words individually in the expression
 (ka-as karaitu sid-uti-as)?

- If "marutam" is the "cooling rain waters", then it has linguistic affinity to Turkish word "yagmurtum" meaning "I was rain". 

- You said that:

Here we should note that Indra is Tamil with the root Su. itu, inda ( moon) and hence perhaps originally the Divine Power of Soma, the Moon".

Polat Kaya:

- If Indra is Tamil, the word "Tamil" also means "God".  Is this understanding correct? If Tamil" is a "god" what does it represent?

- How do you connect INDRA or TAMIL to Sumerian  itu, inda (moon)?

- How do yo connect the "Divine Power of Soma" to the Moon?  Does SOMA mean Moon?

- How do you linguistically connect Soma to Indra and to the Sun the PARI?
You said:

>>>> All such notions agree quite well with Tantrism of the Siddhas and so forth where it is the KuNdalini that is seen as the Inner Sun and Moon, the Ravi Mati and which on fusing as one releases the energy of thousand suns

(to continue) 1<<<<


Polat Kaya:

-What is the exact meaning of the term "KuNdalini"?  How can it be connected with the concepts of "Inner Sun" and "Inner Moon"?

- What is the meaning of the word "SIDDHAS"? 

My best wishes to you and all,

Polat Kaya