Dialog with K. Loganathan part-2.2: about the term "Tantrism".

Dialog With K. Loganathan Part-2.2: About the term "TANTRISM". 

Dear Dr. Loganathan,

Hi. To my question about Tantrism, you said in part: "
By Tantrism I mean the Tantiram here and which means ëritualistic  practices .like Puja (offering of flowers) aaraati (showing of light )  towards an icon (an Idol)

Etymologically this word can be derived ( I think) from ëtar-til-amí taking back to the Sumerian roots where ëtarí is the given as :ínam-tar-reí and ëtilí is to live , exist and so forth. So perhaps the original meaning was ìa practice that would cause the existence (til-am) of the metaphysical essences ( nam-tar) . At the moment there is a degenerate sense to Tantiram in Tamil ; skill, strategy , a trick etc. that may be related to this."

Polat Kaya  (Note: My response in this paper is in "purple"): This definition of Tantrism explains only some of the activities being done during the rituals of "Tantrism".  However it does not give an understanding of the real meaning of Tantrism.  We must know why we are offering flowers and to whom we are doing all of these things and whose "icon" is it that we are facing.  None of these are defined. 

The term "ICON" said to be etymologically from Greek "eikön" meaning a pictorial representation of a deity, a conventional religious image painted on small wooden panels.  This so called Greek word is actually two usurped Turkish words. Greek word "Eikön" when separated as "EI + KÖN" consists of the Turkish words "AI (AY) + GÜN" meaning "Moon + Sun".  Since very ancient times, the Turanians have worshipped both the Sun and the Moon together with the creator Sky-God (Gok Tanri) as their deities.  Their icons were kept in the temples.  Greeks evidently took the older Turkish names of these Sky-deities and joined them together and made the word "EIKON" for themselves. 

Now, if those believers of Tantrism face an "icon" and offer flowers and other things to it, it must be a carryover from the much earlier Turanian practice of worshipping the Sun and the Moon and The Sky-God and making offerings and sacrifices etc. to their icons.  The Turkish words Ay and Gün, meaning "moon" and "sun", being embedded in the term "icon" (ei-kön) verifies this.  Thus in its origin, an "icon" is a representation of ancient Turanian religious culture  based on "AY" (moon) and "GÜN" (Sun) deities. 

You said: "
So perhaps the original meaning was ìa practice that would cause the existence (til-am) of the metaphysical essences ( nam-tar)" where you defined two words: One is "TIL-AM" meaning "existence" and the other being "NAM-TAR" meaning "metaphysical essences".  

These terms are significant.  The word "TIL-AM" can be taken as Turkish "TILEM" (DILEM) meaning "I am tongue, I am word, I am language, I am speech". Turkish "TIL" (DIL) means "tongue" and language".  This is similar to the Turkish word "AGUZ" meaning "mouth and speech".  The suffix "-AM" is the verbal ending meaning "I am".  This Turkish suffix has been usurped into English language as in "I am".  The "Word", that is, Tr. "Söz", enables all concepts to live by giving "names" to them. In other words, if a concept is not given a "name",  it cannot be identified distinctly and therefore cannot "live", just like if a person is not named in some way, he cannot be identified.  Thus, "TIL-AM" or "TIL" (DIL) provides "existence" to concepts of all kinds. 

The second term "NAM-TAR" comes into the picture.  But this word is the Turkish word "NAMTUR" (NAMDUR, NAMDIR) meaning "it is name".  Turkish word "NAM" means "name".  "Nam" is a word that gives a lable to a concept and/or to an entity.  Thus, a given name, which is a "word", makes each item or concept distinct from others. This "name giving to concepts" has been personified in the ancient Turkish culture by the name "DEDE KORKUT" in OGUZ epic stories. 

Thus when we identify these Sumerian and/or Tamil terms with such clarity in Turkish they become extremely important.  Without this Turkish connection, your  explanation regarding the etymology of the word "Tantrism" being from Sumerian or Tamil sources is not convincing. 

Related to Tantrism, I have the following definition from URL:

http://www.santosha.com/moksha/tantrism1.html   [6]

TANTRISM:  "Tantrism, then, is an occult or esoteric tradition comprised of arcane disciplines. This means that its teachings are secret or "hidden" and cannot, or at least should not, be divulged to the uninitiated. Indeed, traditionally, the Tantric initiates were sworn to secrecy." 

Of course the question begs, why all the secrecy? What is it that they want to keep secret?  Keeping things secret from the public view raises the suspicion that something strange, dishonest or not truthful is going on behind closed doors.  This also reminds us of other secretive groups, that is, namely "the cabalists". Even the name "CABAL" is taken from Turkish "KAPALI" meaning "closed, secret, not open to the public". Secrecy associated with such activities is an indication that the cult operators were cooking something that was untruthful or illegal where the public was the subject of exploitation.  It is a fact that these kinds of secret activities are generally designed for the exploitation of people.  
Some other sources in the internet [7] also give the definition saying that: "While some sects have developed from the Vedic tradition that have separated themselves from the Hindu religion, such asJainism, Saivism, Tantrism, and, even in and important sense, Buddhism, all, nonetheless, adhere to certain common beliefs and most worship the same gods embodied within the Vedic tradition." 

In view of all this, Tantrism boils down to  "an occult" or an "esoteric tradition" comprised of arcane disciplines like the names JAINISM and SAIVISM. It must be noted here that the English language suffix "ISM" terminating these names is in fact the restructured Turkish word "ISMI" meaning "its name". Thus it is again an usurpation from Turkish.  Now let us examine the terms Jainism and Saivism.

By definition,"Jainism is defined as a religion of India originating in the 6th century B. C. and teaching liberation of Soul by right knowledge, right faith, and right conduct." 
[8] This is all very well except that when we rearrange the term JAINISM letter-by-letter as "JAN-ISMI" and read it phonetically as in Turkish, we find that it is a form of Turkish expression "CAN ISMI" meaning "its name is Life and Soul".  It is clear that this ancient Indian religion JAINISM of the 6th century B.C. was based on the  Turkish words "CAN" meaning "soul" and "life" and "ISMI" along with the associated Turkish culture that goes with these words. The letter J in "JAN" is a replacement for Turkish letter "C" in "CAN" which has the same sound as English "J".  In ancient times, there was no letter J.  It is an invention of recent times.

Similarly, the name "Saivism" is defined as a major Hindu sect devoted to the cult of 
SIVA which is defined as: "[from Sanskrit Siva, meaning properly, friendly, auspicious] One of the supreme deities of Hinduism, when regarded as one member of the Hindu triad, representing the principle of destruction and also the reproductive or restoring power." [9]

If the term "Saivism" was really based on the name SIVA, then the term "SAIVISM" should have been called "SIVAISM", but it is not. So something seems amiss here.  When the name SAIVISM is rearranged as "SAV-ISMI", it turns out to be the restructured form of Turkish expression "SEV ISMI" meaning "its name is love, friendliness". The Turkish word "SEV" from verb "sevmek" means "to love, to be friendly". This is the same meaning attributed to SIVA. The name SIVA is the restructured Turkish word "SAVI" (SEVI) meaning "love", "being sincere and friendly", "being open and honest". In spite of this meaning of "love and friendliness", it is odd that SIVA is also regarded as the "god of destruction" which is the total opposite of its "love" and "friendliness" aspect.  Something seems to be out of place here. Irrespective of this odd situation, it is clear that the term "SAIVISM" is made up from Turkish words "SEV" + "ISMI" or "SEVI"+ "ISMI".

In the same way when we rearrange the term TANTRISM letter-by-letter as "TANRI-SMT", and read it phonetically as in Turkish, it is found that the term TANTRISM is a restructured form of the Turkish expression "TANRI ISMITI" meaning "It is the name of God (Tanri)" referring to the ancient Turanian Sky-God known by the Turkish name "TANRI, TENGRI, TENGIR, TANGARA" and others.  Of course, the name Tanri (God) is at the centre of any religion or "esoteric tradition". Thus it becomes clear that in the name "TANTRISM", two Turkish words and a suffix have been restructured and fuzed together.  So again, Turkish is at the roots of these names.

Yet "Tantrism" is also defined under the entry of "tantra" as: "one of the later Hindu or Buddhist scriptures dealing especially with techniques and rituals including meditative and sexual practices" [10]

It is clear from the definitions of these "secretive" teachings that words of the ancient Turkish language and the  religious concepts of the ancient Turkish civilization have been used in a disguised manner as titles for cults in the Indian sub-continent - just like the Greek Aryans (Arayans) did in their Greek language.  Ancient Turkish words and culture have been ecretly used in mystifying titles for these cults.  But yet the tenets or principles of these secretive cults could not be told to initiates by their founders. And indeed, it is said that traditionally, the Tantric initiates were sworn to secrecy.  This is a positive indication that some, if not all, of these cults were mainly designed to exploit trusting people. 

All of this is a verification of how influential Turkish was in the formation of the names of many sects and cults in the sub-continent of India and also in the formation of the Sanskrit language - just like in the manufacture of the other Indo-European languages.

In some sources "TANTRISM" is defined as follows: "The word "
Tantrism" is of the Sanskrit origin, from the word ³tantra² meaning "action". Tantrism implies active religious practice as opposed to mere faith."  In other words, this religion requires actual paarticipation of the newly joined client into the secretive acts of the cult and also make sure that no aspect of the activities are told to anyone.

The Random House Dictionary 
[11] gives the following definition under "tantra". "1. Hinduism, any of several books of esoteric doctrine regarding rituals, disciplines, meditatin, etc., composed in the form of dialogs between Shiva and his Shakti; Agama.  2. Also called Tantrism, the philosophy or doctrine of these books, regarding the changing, visible world as the creative dance or play of the divine mother andregarding enlightenment as the realization of the essential oneness of one's self and of the visible world with Shiva-Shakti, the Godhead: influential in some schools of Mahayana Buddhism. [from Sanskrit : lit. warp, escence < tanoti he weaves]."

In this definition the Sanskrit word "
tantra" seems to be very much a restructured form of a number of Turkish words and phrases which are similar in structure.  They are; 

1)  "TANTRA", when rearranged as "TANRAT", is a form of Turkish expression: 

a) "TANRI ATA" meaning "God Father", 
b) "TANRI ATI" (TANRI ADI) meaning "its name is God"
c) "TANRITI" meaning "it is God". 

2) "TANTRA", when rearranged as "ARATNT", is a form of Turkish word: 

a) "yARATANTI" meaning "it is creator"; 
b) "ARATANTI" meaning "it makes one to search". 

3) "TANTRA", when rearranged as "ATANTR", is a form of Turkish word: 

a) "ATANTUR" meaning "it is your father, creator"; 
b) "ETENTUR" ("EDENDIR", yapandir) meaning "it is creator, it is maker, it is doer". 
c) "ITENTUR" ("itendir") meaning "it is pusher, it is mover".  "Pushing" (Tr. "itme" from verb "itmek" meaning "to push") excerts the force that creates "motion".

Additionally, the word "Tantrism" has been derived from Turkish expression "TANRITI ISMI" meaning "its name is God". And thus the concept behind Tantrism and consequently the name "RIG VEDA" are again related to the ancient Turanian "TANRI" concept, its religious implications and the Turkish language. 

In view of these Turkic background definitions, it is clear that the term "TANTRISM" is a name for activities that deal with the concept of "God", that is, perhaps "understanding the God (Tanri) concept. At least this is the external impression one gets from the terms Tantra and Tantrism, but what goes on behind closed doors is anybodies guess. 

In your explanation you also used the term "temple worship". It is not clear to me how the "temple worship" is made?  Why would temples be the subject of worshipping?  Temples are made for deities and the worshipping of deities occurs inside the temple.   The temple "building" itself is not "worshipped' as your explanation implies.  Or did you really want to mean something else? This term is rather confusing. 

- In your writing, the name "vedas" seems to mean "document" or "manuscripts" or "writings". Additionally, they are said to be "hymns", that is, praising a "god". Is this a correct understanding of the word "vedas"?


All are  correct in a way. When you enter into a linguistic analysis , the Vedas are texts, literary documents, manuscripts etc. . where we isolate the linguistic aspects bracketing off the others.  When  you look into the literary structure they are ëhymnsî chanted and so forth.
 I believe these are not contradictory but rather complementary to each other . Each way of accessing the Vedas bring out  some aspects and may go into understanding the Vedas. However I also believe a FULL understanding may be elusive as the cadence in recitations of it bring out semantics of intonations and which may escape the analytical  mind.  But this is NOT peculiar  to the Vedas. I have also heard the same being said by Muslim scholars who claim that the FULL meaning of the Koranic verses will come out only when chanted (?) appropriately. I have also been told the Teveram Hymns have to be  SUNG with the raga  or musical notes specified to understand the full range of meanings.
I am in agreement with this statement. 

For, general interest, I am posting below: 1:1:1-9, as translated in Rg Vedic Samhita, for the benefit of our Turkish friends. 

1.001.01 I glorify Agni, the high priest of the sacrifice, the divine, the ministrant, who presents the oblation (to the gods), and is the possessor of great wealth. [Agni = purohita, the priest who superintends family rites; or, he is one of the sacred fires in which oblations are first (pura) offered (hita); deva: a god, the bright, shining, radiant; fr. div, to shine; or, one who abides in the sky or heaven (dyusha_na); or, liberal, donor (in the sense of giving); r.tvij = a ministering priest, he is also the hota_ (Aitareya Bra_hman.a 3.14), the priest who presents the oblation or who invokes or summons the deities to the ceremony; fr. hu, to sacrifice; or, fr. hve, to call; ratnadha_tama: lit. holder of jewels; ratna = wealth in general; figurately, reward of religious rites]. 

1.001.02 May that Agni who is to be celebrated by both ancient and modern sages conduct the gods hither. [pu_rva and nu_tana, former and recent are terms appled to r.s.is or sages; former r.s.is are: Bhr.gu, An:giras; they are also termed praja_patis (Vis.n.u Pura_n.a)] 

1.001.03 Through Agni the worshiper obtains that affluence which increases day by day, which is the source of fame and multiplier of mankind.

1.001.04 Agni, the unobstructed sacrifice of which you are on every side the protector, assuredly reaches the gods. [Adhvaram yajn~m, free from injury or interruption; 'on every side': fires at a sacrifice are lighted at four cardinal points: 

1.001.05 May Agni, the presenter of oblations, the attainer of knowledge, he who is true, renowned, and divine, come hither with the gods. [kavi-kratu: one by whom either knowledge or religious acts (kratu) are acquired or performed 

1.001.06 Whatever good you may, Agni, bestow upon the giver (of the oblation), that verily, An:giras shall revert to you. 
[An:giras = an:ga_ra, a live coal (Nirukta 3.17); 'the coals became the An:girasas', ye an:ga_ra_h a_sanste an:giraso abhavan (Aitareya Bra_hman.a 3.34); the legend: (Maha_bha_rata, Vanaparvan, Vol. II) Ma_rkand.eya tells Yudhis.t.hira, when the latter asks, "How is it that while Agni, went too the forest and ceased his functions; yet, An:giras became Agni to convey the oblations to gods? How is it that Agni, who is one, becomes many?" Agni, says Ma_rkan.d.eya, engaged in penance and relinquished his duties; Muni An:giras took upon himself the office of Agni. When he prevailed upon Agni to resume his office, the latter became his son; his descendants, the An:girasas,therefore are also the descendants of Agni, or so many Agnis, or fires. The fires are enumerated at length, explained as personification of light, of luminous bodies, of divisions of time, of celestial phenomena, and fires adapted to peculiar occasions (full-moon, changes in phases of moon or to particular rites, as'vamedha, ra_jasu_ya, pa_ka yajn~as (sacrifices with food), obsequial and funeral fires, expiatory fires). A further legend is told: FirstAgni is called Saha, who hid himself in the ocean to avoid the approach of Niyata, the son of Bharata, the fire of the funeral pile. The text says, 'through fear'; Sa_yan.a adds: either through fear of being rendered impure by his contact, or being ashamed of his relationship, Niyata being his own grandson. When gods came looking for Agni, the latter designated as his substitute, Atharvan, also called An:giras]. 


NOTE:  In Ram Varmha's writing above I highlighted some of the names and expressions to standout and be seen easily. 

ATHARVAN ==> "HAN-AATUR"  "HAN AyATUR" meaning "He is the Moon" referring to ancient Turanian AY-TANRI (Moon God); or  "HAN TUR-O" meaning "He is Lord TUR the creator Sky-God".

From Ram Varmha's examples, the term "an:giras", when rearranged letter-by-letter as "GISARAN", is the restructured and disguised Turkish expression "GISARAN" ("KIZARAN) meaning  "that which becomes red" referring to the "SUN" again.  The Sun becomes "red" as it sets in the evening and it resembles a red hot burning "coal" (Tr. gara/kara kömür).  The Turkish expression "GISARAN" ("KIZARAN) also describes coal that becomes "live red hot" in the fire. 

Of course the term "an:giras" is also a restructured form of the Turkish expression "GARA-SIN" meaning "You are 'black".  In ancient Semitic and Aryan (Arayan) language, "SIN" is the name given to "MOON".  In this context, "GARA-SIN" means "Black Moon" which is the "black", that is, the "invisible" phase of the moon.  This concept constitutes the basic belief of the ancient Aryan religions.  That is why, as Ram varmha points out above in the expression: 
"How is it that while Agni, went too the forest and ceased his functions; yet, An:giras became Agni to convey the oblations to gods?".  In plain language, this allegorical talk tells us that the ancient Aryan priests replaced the ancient Turanian SUN-GOD, that is, Turkish "GÜN-HAN" which is converted into "AGNI" in Hinduism, with the "BLACK MOON", that is, Turkish "GARA/KARA-AY HAN) as bases for their religions. The Semites also did the same alterations, thus the very ancient Turanian Turkic Sun-God religion which was totally open and true religion was replaced with new secretive religions.  We note that the "Gara-Ay Han" (Black Moon) becomes a "reddened", that is, lighted up "Full Moon" under the rays of the sun as the moon travells around the earth.   In the above allegorical story, "Black Moon" is likened to "black coal" (Tr. "Gara-kömür") which becomes "red hot" as it gets heated in the fire.  

Thus it is clear that these ancient Aryan priests, when they were writing religious texts, they were actually talking in riddles in a very secretive ways. 


1.001.07We approach you, Agni, with reverential homage in our thoughts, daily, both morning and evening. 


1.001.08 You, the radiant, the protector of sacrifice, the constant illuminator of truth, increasing in your own dwelling. 


1.001.09 Agni, be to us easy of access, as is a father to his son; be ever present with us for our good 



Polat Kaya:  I discussed some of these in my response entitled "Dialog with K. Loganathan Part-2.1: about the word "Rig-Veda" 

In the above example Vedic sayings, AGNI, the Sun-God, (from Turkish "GÜN" meaning "sun") is being described and praised.  

The term "DEVA" when rearranged as "VD+AE", where V=U, becomes "UD +AE", which is Turkish "UD + AY" (OD AY) meaning "Fire (Sun) and Moon" both of which are "DEV" (giant) entities. Turkish "DEV' means "giant".  In Semitic the term "DAVUD" (David) is also from Turkish "DEV + UD" (DEV OD) meaning "giant fire" which again refers to "Sun".   It makes perfect sense for "DAVID" to have a star as its icon - because DAVID (DEV-OD) is the Sun - which is itself a "STAR" - but these are all Turkish (Turanian) in origin.

The Sanskrit term "PURA" meaning "first" is from Turkish expression "PIR O" meaning "He/She/It is ONE" or "He/she/it is first".  Thus "BIR-O" (PIR-O) is the name of the ancient Turanian creator Sky-God.  The creator Sky-God is always the "first one" since by concept, there was nothing else except Him in creating the universe. 

AGNI being the same as "PUROHITA" is also meaningful. PUROHITA when rearranged as "PIR-O-HUTA" is the Turkish expression "PIR O ATA" meaning "Only He is the Father" (only He is the creator).  In our solar system the SUN is the only creator.  Sun is GÜN in Turkish.  So is AGNI which is another form of Turkish GÜN.  "PIR-O-HUTA" can also be explained with the Turkish expression "PIR-O OT-O (UTU)" meaning "Only He is That-Fire" or "Only He is the UTU" referring to the Sun God.

The name HUDA or HUTA as a name for "God" in Persian and Urdu languages is nothing but the restructured and disguised form of ancient Turanian Turkic (Sumerian) "ATA" (Sky-Father-God) and "UTU" (Sun-God).

a) Since "VEDAS" are texts, literary documents, manuscripts and also hymns, then I see the following Turkish words in the term VEDAS.

a1) The term VEDAS, with V=Y, and rearranged as "YASED", is Turkish word "YAZID" (Yazit) meaning "texts, literary documents, manuscripts ".  

a2)  In the form "VEDA" meaning "hymn" it is a form of "OVÜDÜ" meaning "it is praising".  

Thus in view of these, the term VEDA or VEDAS is explainable in Turkish and has linguistic kinship to Turkish.

b) In Hinduism, AGNI is a personification of a "fire" concept. That concept is the Sun and thus the "Sun-God". We have the following  excerpt from   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda:  [12] It says: "Agni is cognate with Latin 'ignis' and Russian 'ogon', both meaning "fire". "[Ref. 4 Wikipedia].  From this reference, we can see that Sanskrit AGNI is a restructured  form of Turkish "GÜN O" meaning "it is Sun", "it is day", "it is light".  In another posting I also noted that the Indian god GANESHA was an altered form of the Turkish name GÜNESH" meaning "Sun".  

Latin IGNIS, when rearranged as "GINIS" is the restructured form of Turkish "GÜNES" where S=Sh meaning "Sun".  And finally, the  Russian word "OGON" meaning "fire" is from Turkish "O GUN" (O GÜN) meaning "It is sun" and Sun is a giant "fire". Similarly, in Russian ODIN means "God".  But ODIN has two aspects to be noted: in one, ODIN is a form of Turkish expression "O DIN" meaning "it is religion" indicating that ODIN is something that makes the essence of "religion" and also means "He/She/it is religion". Turkish word "O", meaning "He/She/It", is a name for the Sky-God and also means "it is". Additionally, ODIN in the form OD-IN" is a form of Turkish "OD-EN" (OD-HAN) meaning "Lord Fire" which refers to the Sun (GÜN).  

Thus all of these examples clearly show that Turkish was the "proto" (Tr. "birata") language for all the so-called Indo-European languages.

"Some of the names of gods and goddesses found in the Rig-Veda are found amongst other Indo-European peoples as well: Dyaus is cognate with Greek Zeus, Latin Jupiter, and Germanic Tyr, while Mitra is cognate with Persian Mithra and Ushas with Greek Eos, Latin Aurora and, less certainly, Varuna with Greek Uranos."

Rig Veda term DYAUS meaning "god" is also made up from Turkish words. It is from: a) "aDY AUS" (ADI AUS) meaning "its name is Oguz the God"; b) "Its name is mouth" the speech maker; and  "DAYUSh" (deyish) meaning "speech".  Thus, DYAUS has its origin in Turkish - just like Zeus. 

Greek ZEUS is from Turkish "SÖZ" meaning "word, speech, language"

Similarly the Latin name JUPITER, when rearranged as "TUR-PEJI" where J = Y, is from Turkish "TUR BEYI" meaning "Lord TUR" the God, and as "U-PIJ-TER" is from Turkish "O BEY DER" (O Bey söyler) meaning "That lord speaks", thus referring to "mouth" (AGUZ).

Germanic TYR  is from Turkish TUR for the name of the Sky God, and also from Turkish "TeYiR" (deyir, diyor)  meaning "it speaks" referring to "AGUZ".

Rig Veda term MITRA is from Turkish "TIRAM" (DERIM) meaning "I say, I speak, I am mouth" and also TAMRI/TANRI with N/M alphabetic shift, meaning "god'

Persian MITHRA, when rearranged as "TIARHM" is from Turkish "DIYERIM" meaning "I say, I speak" defining "mouth" (aguz); and when MITHRA is rearranged  as "THAMRI", it is from Turkish "TANRI" meaning "god".

Rig Veda term AGNI (=> "GIN-A") is from Turkish "GÜN O" meaning "it is Sun".

Thus I have shown that all of these Indo-European words were made by altering and restructuring Turkish words and phrases contrary to known knowledge.  Turkish was the original language from which many other languages sprang from - particularly Indo-European and Semitic languages.


7.    http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/v/vedas.html
8.    Webster's 9th Collegiate Dictionary, 1991, p. 646.
Webster's Collegiate Dict., 1947, p. 930. eskisi///////
10.  Webster's 9th Collegiate Dictionary, 1991, p. 1206
11.  The Random House Dictionary of the Englsh language, Random House, 
       New York, 1967, p. 1453.

Best wishes to all, 

Polat Kaya

Will continue in "dialog with K. Loganathan Part-2.3.