Re: [bcn2004] Re: [hrl_2] I would like to see examples of internal derivations of Turkish words

Dear Dr. Rebbutri Mamsam Isheppu (Rebb),

Welcome to our group. Your participation is appreciated.  

I went through your posting below.  My comments are as follows:

I must say that you have done an admirable job of collecting all of those words and putting them under different labels.  This is all very well and useful if we wanted to compare presently existing words.  The listings from your references compare words of different languages and try to put them into an order using their visual written appearances. It is just like comparing the "leaves" of plants visually and then making judgements and classifications about them. Surely, this is one way of comparing them but my comparisons go much deeper than this approach.  I go to the heart of the words and search kinship in the structural make up of the words (together with their given definitions) with Turkish words and phrases. I must point out that linguists, in their present comparison methods do not consider the following facts that:

1.     there has been anagramatization of Turkish words and phrases in the formation of words for IE and 
       Semitic languages.  
2.    there has been "linguistic wrapping" in the formation of words for different IE and Semitic languages.

3.    there has been further subdivision in the manufactured words for some languages such as cutting off the 
       front end of much longer manufactured words and using the front segment as a representative of the
       larger word or as a word with a new assigned meaning. 
4.    there has been alterations of the letter(s) in the words and phrases of the model language in making 
       words for a newly manufactured language.

Because of these very important language affecting considerations that the linguists have not included in their studies, their method of comparing words of languages is lacking and superficial. Hence it cannot give the correct results. In fact it does not even touch the fact that some of these languages have been manufactured.  In spite of this fact, their artificiality is overlooked and they are regarded as if they were genuine languages. Therefore, and in view of all these, what I do and propose and what linguists have been doing and proposing are totally different things.  While linguists compare words of established languages, as these words appear in their present formats,I, in my way of analyzing words, examine and compare their makeup with respect to the words and phrases of the model language of Turkish and their definitions.  The guide for my examinations of the IE and and Semitic words is their meanings and the concepts that they represent and define. 

Furthermore, I do not use confusing jargon and artificial labeling of morphemes such as with asterisks - as linguists are doing.  They are comparing particles from the present languages with some imaginary so-called "proto" words marked with asterisks that are not really known.  This is guess work. It gives the impression that in order to coverup the linguistic reality of languages having been manufactured from Turkish, it is sending most of the honest linguists on a wild goose chase.  

Let me repeat one of my earlier examples again.  The Latin word NOCTURNUS meaning "night, nightly" turns out to have been made up from the Turkish expression "KUNUN TERSI" meaning "opposite of day" - which the night is. This is an undeniable exact definition in Turkish of this so-called "Latin" word NOCTURNUS.  Now in view of this finding, would you, as a linguist and a scientist who wants to find the truth, not ask, why am I finding these exact Turkish correspondences inside IE words? Do they not intrigue your curiosity?  Don't you think that you should be looking at the findings of Polat Kaya objectively and more seriously?  Yet you are bringing forward what linguists have done so far (which I question strongly) and trying to force me to accept their explanations as if they were correct. Why should I abandon my enlightening approach and accept their misleading approach? 

In my previous posting I noted that OCTO and LACTE were cut-off front ends of much larger words made up from Turkish.  You did not dwell on these very important evidences that I gave.  Instead of discussing how this could have happened, you provided a long list of words that can be used for other purposes.  Regarding your list I have written my comments in blue within your list.  They are very relevant to the subject, I hope you will carefully note them.

This is all I have to say about your listed words at this time.  Please know that I am not denying the usefulness of your listed words.  In fact, using the references that you kindly provided us, ( I quickly made a small list myself which I am going to share with you below. 

As a sample, I viewed the 100 word-list of Lithuanian language, compiled by Sergei Starostin under the title of "Indo-European" and "Baltic Etymology". I selected some of the words from that 100 word-list and here they are with my analyses.  The red entries are the ones taken from the original list.  The comments in blue are mine: 

fire Lithuanian: ugnì-s Lettish: uguns;    
When UGNIS is rearranged as "GUNIS", I find the Turkish word "GUNESh" meaning "sun" which certainly is fire. Even if their word was UGNI, I would find the Turkish word GUN meaning "sun" in it which is again fire. 

Word: eye Lithuanian: akì-s  Lettish: acs ;     
When AKIS is rearranged as "KAIS", and when ACS is rearranged as CAS, I find a form of the Turkish word "GZ" / "KZ" meaning "eye". So this Turkish word is embedded in these two words.  

Word: head Lithuanian: galvà Lettish: gal^va Yatvingian: kalfa  
When GALVA and KALFA  are rearranged as "KAFA-L", I find a form of the Turkish word "KAFA" meaning "HEAD" in them.

Word: man Lithuanian: vī́ras Lettish: vi^rs; vīrietis       
I find a form of the Turkish word ER meaning "man" and ERIS, ERIZ meaning "we are man". 

Word: see Lithuanian: regḗti Lettish:       
I find a form of the Turkish word  GOR-TI  meaning "it is seeing" and "he/she/it saw".

Word: smoke Lithuanian: dū́mai Lettish: dũmi         
I find a form of the Turkish word DUMAN meaning "smoke". 

sun Lithuanian: sáulē Lettish: saũle Yatvingian: sala  
I find a form of the Turkish word "AL-AZ O" meaning "it is peerless AL (Red)" referring to "AL" God which is the Sun.  Additionally, I find the Turkish word "ALAZ O"(ALAV/ALEV O, ATASh O) meaning "it is fire, it is flame" which the Sun is. 

Word: tooth Lithuanian: dantìs Lettish: zùobs Yatvingian: dontis        
When DONTIS is rearranged as "DISNT-O", I find a form of the Turkish word "DISiNTi O" meaning "it is your tooth". 

Word: warm Lithuanian: il̃tas Lettish: sìlts       
When rearranged as "ISTAS-L", I find a form of the Turkish word "ISITISH" meaning "it is heating".  In the form "ISTALS", I find the Turkish word "ISITILISh" meaning "it is being heated".  In the form "ISTA-LS", I find a form of the Turkish word "ISiTI" meaning "it is warm", "it is heat". 

Word: water Lithuanian: vanduõ Lettish: u^dens Yatvingian: auu         
When the Lettish word is rearranged in the form of "SU-DE-N", I  find a form of the Turkish word "SUDU" meaning "it is water".  In the form SUDEN, I  find the Turkish word  "SUDAN" meaning "made of water".  

 we Lithuanian: mẽs Lettish: mẽs      
I find a form of the Turkish word "BIZ" meaning "we". 

Word: white Lithuanian: báltas Lettish: bal̃ts Yatvingian: baltas       
When rearranged as "BALAST", I find a form of the Turkish word "BAIAZTI" (BAYAZDI) meaning "it is white", with I to L ( l ) shift..

 woman Lithuanian: mṓter-is Lettish: sieviete Yatvingian: wirba         
When mṓter-is  is rearranged as "EMISTOR", I find a form of the Turkish word "EMISTIR" (MEMEDIR, ANADIR) meaning "she is mother. 
sieviete  is rearranged as "EV-ESITI-E", I find a form of the Turkish word "EV ESIDI O" meaning "she is housewife", that is, a woman. 
wirba is rearranged as "ARWAB", I find a form of the Turkish word "ARVAD" meaning "woman, wife".

Word: dry Lithuanian: saũsas Lettish: sàus-s  
When rearranged as "SUSAS-A", I find a form of the Turkish word "SUSUZ O" or "SUSUZ" meaning "it is waterless", "it is dry", "it is without water". 

Word: green Lithuanian: ãlia- Lettish: zal̨   
When rearranged as "IAZAL", I find a form of the Turkish word "YAZIL" (YAShIL, YEShIL) meaning "green". 

Word: give Lithuanian: dúoti Lettish: duo^t Yatvingian: dodi       
When rearranged in the form of "OTIDU", I find a form of the Turkish word ODEDI  (VERDI) meaning "paid" , "gave".

Word: yellow Lithuanian: geltṓna-s Lettish: dzęl^tęns Yatvingian: zeld        
Rearranged as "AS -ELTONG" or "ES-ALTONG", I find a form of the Turkish word "AS ALTUNG"(AS ALTUN, BIR ALTUN) meaning "peerless gold" or "one gold". The color of gold (altun) being "yellow", the name "gold" also represents "yellow" color.  

From this short list, I have shown that the 100 word list of the IE Lithuanian language has a considerable amount of Turkishness in its nature. 

From the  Pokorny's dictionary compiled by George Starostin in the same listing with a very quick examination, I also noted these words.

Number: 3 Root: ā̆bel-, ā̆bōl-, abel- English meaning: apple German meaning: `Apfel' Material: Lat. Abella(osk. Stadt in Campanien) malifera `pfeltragend', nach Verg. Aen. 7, 740, drfte ihren Namen nach der Apfelzucht erhalten haben und auf die Grundform *ablonā zurckweisen. Der Apfel ist nicht etwa erst nach der Stadt benannt.

The sounds represented by B, P, PP and M are very related labial sounds meaning that they could be replaced with each other.  When the root words ā̆bel-, ā̆bōl-, abel are rearranged as ELBA, ALBO and ELBA respectively and replacing B with M, we get the words ELMA, ALMO, and ELMA which is the same as the Turkish word ELMA / ALMA meaning "apple".  The same can be said about German APFEL and Latin ABELLA  and even English APPLE which are all made up from Turkish ELMA and ALMALI meaning "with apple". 

Even the Latin word MALIFERA meaning "apple-bearing", when rearranged as "ALMA-FERI", we see the restructured, Romanized and disguised form of the Turkish expression "ALMA VERI" meaning "it gives apple" or "it bears apple".  Turkish ALMA is "apple" and VERI means "it gives, it bears". 

So the root for these European words meaning "apple" are definitely the Turkish word ALMA / ELMA meaning "apple" and not 
ā̆bel-, ā̆bōl-, abel  as shown above.  It is seen that linguists telling us that ā̆bel-, ā̆bōl-, abel  is the root for apple-related IE words is not correct.

Number: 12 Root: ā̆g^- English meaning: goat German meaning: `Ziegenbock, Ziege' Material: Ai. ajá-ḥ`Ziegenbock', ajā́ `Ziege', mpers. azak `Ziege', npers. azg ds.;

When English GOAT is rearranged as TAGO or TAG-O, we find the Turkish word TEGE / TEKE  or TEGE O / TEKE O meaning "male goat" or" it is male goat".  So the root for "GOAT' is definitely Turkish TEGE / TEKE and not the wrongly claimed ā̆g^-

When the German word ZIEGE meaning "goat" is rearranged as "GEZIE", I find a form of the Turkish word "GEI" (KEI) meaning "goat".   So again it is a restructured form of Turkish word "GEI" (KEI) and its root is in Turkish rather than the wrongly claimed 

Number: 14 Root: ā̆g^her-, ā̆g^hen-, ā̆g^hes- (oder ōg^her usw.) English meaning: day German meaning: `Tag'Grammatical comments: Heteroklit. Neutrum. Material: Ai. áhar, áhaḥ, Gen. áhn-as, av. Gen. PI. asn-ąm `Tag'. 

Inside the root word "ā̆g^her-" I find a form of the Turkish word "AGARI" meaning "becoming light" or  "becoming white"
Inside the root word "
ā̆g^hen-" I find a form of the Turkish word "AKHAN" meaning "white lord" referring to the Sun. I also find the Turkish word "AH-GUN"(AK GN)  meaning "white day", "day" or "day light".
Inside the root word "
ā̆g^hes-" I find a form of the Turkish word "AGISHI" meaning "white light"

German TAG  meaning "day" must be from Turkish "AGTI" meaning "it is white, it is light", as Sanskrit AKHTU and Turkish AKTU means "it is light, it is white, it is bright" which is the "DAY".

So all of these correspondences cannot be due to my rearrangement of these words, but rather due to somebody else having restructured them from the Turkish words and phrases in the first place.  All I am doing now is utilizing the meanings of the IE words and reversing the process that was applied to the Turkish source texts in producing these IE words.

Please see my other comments below interlaced with your listing. 

rmisheppu wrote:

Dear Dr. Kaya, Dear Members,


I am still working on the lexical comparisons, but I feel I cannot leave this posting uncommented.


Let me, please, cite from the only source on Altaic languages, readily available to the public on the Internet. Although it is not flawless (some semantic matches are rather disputable), it is a monumental and pioneering work indeed. As such, it will have to be further refined, corrected and extended, of course. Nonetheless, a vast majority of etymologies presented by the authors are very likely to be correct, many others are at least promising, and only a small minority are questionable from my point of view (please, see the discussions between S. A. Starostin and A. Vovin in the past). A brief summary of the Etymological Dictionary of Altaic Languages (by Sergei Starostin, Anna Dybo and Oleg Mudrak , Brill Publishers, 2003) has been written by Professor Blazhek and can be found at the following address: (as a chapter in the e-zin 'Linguistica On-Line'). The etymological database itself can be found here:



"Night" vs. "Day"



Proto-Turkic: *gn(el) / *gunal

Meaning: 1 sun 2 day 3 sunny place 4 sun-heat

Old Turkic: kn 1, 2 (Orkh., OUygh.), kne 3 (YB), isig quja 4 (OUygh. - Br.)

Karakhanid: kn 1, 2, quja 4 (MK), kne 3 (Tefs.)

Turkish: gn 2, gne 1, (dial.) guja 1

Tatar: kn 1, 2, qoja 1

Middle Turkic: quja 1 (Sangl., Abush., Pav. C.), kne 1 (Pav. C., Abush., `ор. `ад.), kn 1, 2 (Pav. C., MA)

Uzbek: kun 1, 2, quj" 1

Uighur: kn 1, 2, (dial.) qoja 1

Sary-Yughur: kun 1, 2

Azerbaidzhan: gn 1, 2, gn 1

Turkmen: gn 1, 2, gne 1, 4, quja 1 (dial.)

Khakassian: kn 1, 2

Shor: kn 1, 2, quja 1

Oyrat: kn 1, 2, dial. quja 1 (Kumd., Leb.)

Halaj: kin, kn 1, 2, kin 'sonnig'

Chuvash: kon 2, xʷvel 1

Yakut: kn 1, 2, kuj̃s 'heat'

Dolgan: kn 1, kuns 'heat'

Tuva: xn 1, 2

Tofalar: xn 1, 2

Kirghiz: kn 1, 2

Kazakh: kn 1, 2

Noghai: kn 1, 2, qɨjas 4

Bashkir: kn 1, 2, kns 4, qoja 1

Balkar: kn 1, 2

Gagauz: gn 1, 2, gne 1

Karaim: kn 1, 2, kne 1, quja, qujas 1

Karakalpak: kn 1, 2, quja 1

Salar: gǖn 1, 2

Kumyk: gn 1, 2 gne 1

Comments: VEWT 301, 309 (Rsnen separates *gn and *gun'al', which is hardly justified); EDT 679, 725, 734, ЭСТЯ 3, 100-104, 6, 112-113, Лекика 20-21, 64-65, 77-78, Федотов 1 306-307, Stachowski 161, 164. The forms *gnel and *gunal must be old dialectal variants.

Polat Kaya:    *gn'al'  must be the form of Turkish "AL GN" meaning "red sun".  "AL GN"(GN AL)  is the name of Sun in ancient Turanian religious concept.  Even the present name ALLAH and the ancient name BAALcome from that ancient Turanian source. 




Proto-Mongolian: *gegeɣe < *geɣeɣe

Meaning: dawn, daylight

Written Mongolian: gege(n), gegege(n) (L 373)

Middle Mongolian: gegejen (HY 53, SH), gegen (SH), geji- 'to become light' (SH), gign (MA)

Khalkha: gege(n)

Buriat: gege(n)

Kalmuck: gen, gegɛ̄n

Ordos: gege(n)

Baoan: gegaŋ

Dagur: gegen (Тод. "аг. 131, MD 149), geji- 'to get light (about the sky)' (MD 149)

Monguor: ggen (SM 132)

Comments: KW 132, 135, MGCD 290.



Polat Kaya:  Turkish "GN", meaning "day" or "daytime" as well as "sun", is present with some linguistic wrapping in the above words. 


Proto-Tungus-Manchu: *gianam

Meaning: dawn

Evenki: ge^wan

Even: gǟwụn

Negidal: ge^wan

Ulcha: Ge^wa(n)

Orok: Ge^wa(n)

Nanai: Gịwã

Oroch: gǟawan

Udighe: ge^wa

Comments: ТМС 1, 145. The reflexes match almost exactly those of *mianam 'heart', which makes us reconstruct *gianam with a later assimilative development > *giawan. Cf. perhaps also Jurch. gen-gien 'light, clear' = Man. geŋgen, SMan. giŋiN id. (a contamination with PTM *geŋg- 'clean, clear'? - or the same root?), see ТМС 1, 177.



Polat Kaya:  Turkish "GN", meaning "day" or "daytime" as well as "sun", is present with some linguistic wrapping in the above words. 


Proto-Korean: *kui

Meaning: dawn

Modern Korean: hk:wi

Middle Korean: hăis-kui

Comments: Nam 484, KED 1815.




Proto-Japanese: *ka(i)

Meaning: day, period of time

Old Japanese: ke

Comments: The root is also attested as a suffixed -ka (patu-ka '20 days', itu-ka '5 days' etc.), see JLTT 430, 448.






Proto-Altaic: *gi̯òjnu

Meaning: dawn, daylight

Turkic: *gn(el) / *gunal

Mongolian: *gegeɣe < *geɣeɣe

Tungus-Manchu: *gianam

Korean: *kui

Japanese: *ka(i)

Comments: Лекика 78, Doerfer MT 143. Cf. also Mong. geji- 'to dawn' (KW 137), proving that *geɣe- < *geje-. The Korean form points to a cluster with *-j-, therefore a reconstruction *gi̯òjnu (with subsequent assimilative palatalization -jn- > -jn-) is perhaps more plausible; cf. also the variation *n/*n in PT. The Jpn. reflex is somewhat problematic: loss of final resonant here may be explained by a standard development before a velar suffix (*ka < *gi̯òjn(u)-gV, cf. Mong. *gege-ɣe, Man. geŋ-ge); but one would rather expect a PJ form like *ku(i). The irregular vowel may be due to contraction, cf. a similar case in PJ *ka 'mosquito' < PA *kune.




Whether we adhere to the Indo-Uralic, Ural-Altaic or Nostratic hypothesis, or not, we can borrow a some interesting comparisons from the Tower of Babel (ToB) and Evolution of Human Languages (EHL) projects again:




Proto-IE: *gʷhai-

Meaning: light, bright

Old Greek: phaio-, phai̯dimo- `glnzend, stattlich', phai̯dro- `hell, klar, heiter, frhlich, vergngt', phai̯dǖno `hell machen, reinigen, waschen; erheitern, erfrischen'

Baltic: *geĩd-r-a^, *gei^d-r-a^, *gaid-r-a^ f., *geĩd-r-a-, *gaĩd-r-u- adj., *gaĩd-s-a- c., *gid-r-a- adj.

Albanian: (?) zi 'black'

References: WP I 665, Buck 60.




Proto-Uralic: *koje

English meaning: morning dawn

Finnish: koi 'Morgendmmerung', koitta- 'grauen, dmmern', koite, koitto 'Tagesanbruch'

Estonian: koi-valge 'Abendrte', koit (gen. koitu) 'id.; Morgenrte', koita- 'dmmern'

Komi (Zyrian): ki̮a (S) 'Rte am Himmel'

Khanty (Ostyak): kunl (V), ẋunt (DN), ẋunl (O) 'Rte am Himmel', ẋusl̥ (Syn.), kotl (V), ẋăt (DN), ẋătl (O) 'Tag, Sonne'

Mansi (Vogul): khọj (T), khuj (LM), ẋuj (N) 'Morgenrte', kat.l (TJ), ẋotl (KU), kotl (P) 'Tag'

Hungarian: hajnal 'Tagesanbruch, Morgenroth'

Nenets (Yurak): jer" (O) 'Sonne; klar (wetter)'

Enets (Yen): kaja (Ch.) 'Sonne'

Nganasan (Tawgi): kou

Selkup: kuetj (Ta.), kyetj (NP) 'Hitze', k"<uetje (OO)

Kamass: kuja 'Sonne'

Sammalahti's version: FU *koji (Sam > *kaja, vgl. UEW 642)

Addenda: Koib. ку; Mot. кае, кай; Taig. ха

Yukaghir parallels: ẋoi 'Gott' [Warum "> juk."?]



Polat Kaya:  Please note that some of this group of words have Turkish "GN" embedded in them.  For example, Finish koitta- 'grauen, is very much the Turkish expression "AGARAN GIT" meaning "it is the lightening sky" or "it is the brightening sky" which is a definition of DAWN in Turkish.  The Turkish expression "AGARAN GIT" is one very good definition in Turkish for DAWN.  If linguists do not know what I have just now revealed about this Finnish word, then, whatever they say about it is lacking, misleading and far away from the truth.  Evidently this Finnish word was also manufactured from Turkish but the manufacturing is such that the facts have been well hidden from observation.   Turkish word "AGARAN" means "that which brightens" or "that which is becoming white", "GOI" means "sky", and "GOIT" means "it is sky".

Similarly, when the Finish word 
koi 'Morgendmmerung' is rearranged letter-by-letter as "KOIUN-MOR-GEN-AGRMMDE", I find the Turkish expression "GYN MOR GN AGARMADI" meaning "it is the brightening of the sky with purple/red Sun" which is again "dawn".  So this is another definition in Turkish of the phenomena of Dawn.  Turkish words "KY" (GY) means "sky", KYN (GYN) means "of sky", MOR means "purple / red", and GN mean "sun". 

In view of what I am revealing, linguists have to reassess what they have been doing and start thinking that Turkish was the original model language and that there has been a lot of restructuring from it in coming up with words of new forms. 




And also:


Proto-Uralic: *kuŋe

English meaning: moon; month

Finnish: kuu 'Mond; Monat'

Estonian: kuu

Saam (Lapp): kuojijti- (L) 'aufgehen (vom Mond)' ?

Mordovian: kov, koŋ (E), kov (M) 'Mond; Monat'

Khanty (Ostyak): ẋăw (Ko.) 'Monat', ẋŭw (Kaz.)

Hungarian: ho (PxSg 3 P hava) 'Monat', hold 'Mond', honap 'Monat'

Nganasan (Tawgi): kitada 'Monat'

Kamass: ki 'Mond; M